-
This topic has been locked by a moderator
New comments cannot be added. Moderators may lock topics when they get too out of hand or too long.There should be an explanation at the end of the page as to why this was locked. Please feel free to start a new topic if you wish to continue discussion in a friendly manner.
It has been a hot little issue,started by a a youth filled with angst no doubt. And like Dan Brown who probably never thought that that little conspiracy theory book of his would actually take off in the way that it did,she is now wondering why she took that stick and stirred that big hornets nest. Hiding under the covers in your room perhaps,clutching copies of The Outsiders and The Catcher in the Rye?
Life. Life is like a grape vine and the grapes that grow on it are well, grapes.
So I would say that 13-18 writers are like grape juice--even the best tasting grape juice is still just, grape juice--you could be Welch's which is a finer brand of juice or your neighborhood supermakret generic brand.
Adults writers are like wine--some of these adult writers are like the finest wines and some are like the cheap brand that bums like to drink.
And then you have the occasional raisin--writers who wrote in their youth and have never matured,I like raisins. Raisins are good.
They are tasty and small and come in little packages you can put into a jacket pocket or purse.
Now,you can put grape juice into a bottle of wine but,it will never taste the same will it?
It's an unfair race--and let's face it kids,you've already lost;we are way ahead of you and I will tell you why you will never catch up.
You don't have what it takes--you lack what you desire:Experience and Maturity.
We have live a very very long time--that has more to do with it than just numerical age--some of us way passed our expiration date. We have the experience that we can fall back on and the maturity to deal with what's ahead of us in life and not only survive it but transcend it and put it down on paper,we have thick skins--and sometimes,thick heads--we know how to lose the battles of life gracefully in order to win the wars.
You may rant and rave--pitch a hissy fit and throw a tantrum but it won't work. We are: The yodas. The Obi-wan Kanobes. The Zen Masters. You are: The padawans. The Jedis in-training. The Grasshoppers to the Kung Fu Masters.
Pack your gear and go home--learn the ways of the masters and live life--experience it and continue to write and to mature then join us in the fold,pay your dues and earn your place and then you'll never have to hear the words--you lose,deposit fifty cents and try again. Game Over. -
lol, here we go...
I'd also like to add that writing 'like' adults isn't absolutely necessary in some situations.
-
This argument is so trite... >.>
In general, I will agree with this, because it is true for a majority of people. However, I don't believe it is true for every case. -
Crap. Do I really have to say it again? I'll keep it short this time.
In general, this is true, and it's among the most obvious things in the world, so I don't see why it's even worth mentioning. However, there still comes along the rare kid who can write as well as adults. I'm not saying that kids do write as well as adults, only that some of them have the capacity to.
It also works the opposite way: adults can write as poorly as kids. To compare writing abilities to age is arbitrary. If this topic were "Can adults write as poorly as kids?" what would the response be?
So I present a new case: Good writers are not adults; they are well-educated, well-seasoned people of any age with the drive to work hard and become better. -
Once again,
i'm going to reach outside my own opinon and state the facts.
Yes, it's possible to be first published at anything betwen 11 and 98.
If you are less interested in the extreme deviations and more concerned with a statistical mean, the best i can do is 35; the average age of a new member to the writers guild of america. -
Special Reserve
As a 20 year old who wrote her first book (fifty typed pages, seventy something main characters, main used loosely, three different 'eras') at 11, I can say that TIME has only improved MY writing.
Not to say that it was bad to begin with. Okay, sorry, it was pretty bad (I'm actually glad my computer ate it). But I learned from it, learned about writing and about myself and my writing style.
I imagine that that tiny, crappy little story I cranked out one week in the summer between elementary and middle school is better than a LOT of adults could do. The thing is, they're mostly the ones that don't write.
I'd like to think that my writing has grown exponentially. How couldn't it? I've grown exponentially. But I take offense at people thinking that adults can write better than me personally simply by virtue of being adults. I first became serious about writing at ten- that's ten years of serious writing. That's five major efforts and hundreds of smaller ones.
I agree that things get better with time, especially if effort is put into them. I don't feel much like an adult, and I'm certainly not 35, but I've been maturing in my craft for ten years. Any 35 year old who has just picked up a pen for the first time is not going to be better than me as a writer simply because they are 35 (or even if they are 65 and up). Maybe they have an amazing story to tell (and yes, age can help there), maybe they have a raw talent that far surpasses my own. But their age alone will not trump my ten years WRITING experience.
For those who might protest, my arguement would have worked two or even three years ago- I still had seven or eight more years of writing than any fresh adult under my belt.
Therefore, does being an adult or child matter? There are so many factors- age alone is not enough to decide. The statement "13-18 year olds can't write like adults" is flawed, and I would argue wrong. A person will never be my Obi-wan simply by virtue of being older and more 'mature'. And even if they have had fifty years of writing experience, they still won't necessarily trump me or my peers.
However, if I could reach into my past, I would teach poor young Shadowchild a thing or two about keeping a story to several main characters! Like I said, time has improved my writing. It's the only thing I can say with absolute certainty. -
Your comment was added:
I'm going to agree with shadowchild25, and others. It's really not age. It certainly helps to have various life experiences to draw from, I mean - that's writing. Writing from feelings we know and have experienced, and (even) sometimes haven't! I agree with GuitarShank: "Good writers are not adults; they are well-educated, well-seasoned people of any age with the drive to work hard and become better." Adults can write terribly too. Adults can, too, think they write a lot better than they do. Age doesn't give them privilege, or a free pass from enduring the same struggles as a writer as a 13-18 year old might endure. I think something that a lot of young writers benefit over older writers is that they can come into this situation knowing full well that they still have a lot left to learn, while older (more "mature") writers often assume they don't because they have "life experience." And, as you say, "the maturity to deal with what's ahead of us in life and not only survive it but transcend it and put it down on paper." But you don't do that any better than I do simply because you're older than me. That's a quality that might have a lot to do with age, but mostly it's a lot to do with character.
This is a poorly constructed argument, that's all I'm saying. Writing experience trumps a number. You measure a writer by what they produce, not by their age. -
Another random statistic
The average age of a NY times bestselling author is 50!
-
An arrogant writer is an arrogant writer, regardless of the age. If anyone, anywhere, of any age thinks that they know it all or have nothing to learn in writing, then they are a sham author. Doesn't matter if they have a book that sells, stories that people like, or know every word ever invented by man... if they don't think there's room left to improve, then they're missing out on a lot. No story is perfect, no author is perfect.
On to experiences... I can guarantee that I've had more life experience than 99% of the teens on this site (I don't discuss my private life much, but trust me on that). Now, that being said... for a lot, it's a different type of experience. I went to school in the 70s and 80s... what I went through it different than the school of now. I've been a child, a teen, an adult, on the streets, married, had kids, divorced, and so on. Show me a 15 year old that's gone beyond the 'a teen' part, or 'had kids'.
I haven't gone through the same experiences as other people in this world, but on the whole, they're not on this site... for instance - people in poverty shanty town in Africa, China, Brazil, etc, who couldn't care about a computer or writing, since they're only concern is how to survive. People in war-torn areas (although there are a few on the site, and they've been through more than me, or even most the writers here. There are exceptions to every side to every opinion on this topic).
And I haven't gone through as much as the authors that are older than me. I bet I know a few on here that would make all those 'I've had experience!' people into hiding their faces in shame.
And... last point.... no argument, for or against, can be taken seriously when people post functional illiterate posts. It's hard to take someone serious when they argue full of chat lingo, don't use sentences, just ramble, or don't use a space after the commas and periods.
(Bonus point!!! So far the topic is being polite, but if it turns into insults, or people demanding that they are right, then it will come to the Moderator's attention) -
-
-
I'd like to second that and may I add
.
It's sad, but those that should take this message to heart, won't.
-
ditto the
I will also expand a little on your experience point if I may. As you say, no two people have the same experience, just as no two people write the same. We all write what we know. I often tout that I'm an engineer and with my experience I'm able to write with a bit more scientific background. However, I in no way claim I'm the most experienced person, nor that I'm the best person to write sci-fi. It just makes my sci-fi a little more realistic with my knowledge base.
Sure a teenager can write sci-fi with their imagination and it might even be really good. There just might be some people out there that think it's not very good because they read no scientific basis for the story. (and geeks are some of the harshest critics I know)
I on the other hand wouldn't know where to begin in writing a drama about a teenager's life in school. I was a teenager but never even understood the drama back then. So teenagers now certainly have the most experience writing such stories, far better than I could. Those would be stories that mostly only teenagers would want to read anyway, so they would know that I don't understand them anyway from details in my story.
So as I'm often repeating... Write what you know, and know your audience!
-
-
i understand the grape juice and wine thing
but at the end of the day
i'd rather have the Welche's grape juice than the cheap wine -
Us Kids CAN too Write!
I am only 14, I haven't had anything published, and I just joined this site. But I can say I'm a pretty good writer. Many people say I should get my works published, but I haven't tried yet. i plan on getting a story published at the beginning or before 10th grade. If you want you can look at some of the things I've written. And just because adults are older doesn't mean they can even write! Have any of you ever heard of Amelia Atwater-Rhodes? She is an amazing author. She wrote her first book at age 14. My favorites of her books is "Demon in my view" and she wrote that when she was a teenager too. Kids CAN write AMAZINGLY. They can write very deep stories (I've written some myself) and sometimes they can be so life altering. I'm not trying to be dramatic, but this is all the truth! -
Yet another random statistic!
The average age of a hugo / nebula winner is 44.
From what I can gather from the available information, the timeline of a writer’s career goes something like this.
Teens; decide to become a writer.
Twenties; spent honing craft, with limited commercial success.
Thirties; start making first professional sales.
Forties; reach creative peak.
Fifties; reach commercial peak.
I’m not posting to take sides on this idiot debate, but because I was genuinely interested, and considering someone actually sat down and worked these figures out, I can assume I’m not the only one that was.
If you're hoping to be a bestselling author by the time you finish high school, good luck with that, I’m not saying its impossible only unlikely. Perhaps you will be the extreme deviation.
-
-
hmmm.... well sounds like I'm right on track.
-
I basically took my 20's off, for various reasons. I'm behind! Quick, someone buy my stuff and pay me!
-
still at it, eh?
I will say this; writing experience doesn't count for as much as you think it does, if your works don't noticeably improve over time. I mean plot tightness, attention to detail, strong grasp of SPaG, etc. I've read stories by people older than I am, here on the site (I'm 34 btw), that had the grammar grasp of the average 12 year old. No offense, 12 year olds.
The first story I can remember writing was when I was 14. It was 35 pages long, single spaced, on a typewriter. No editing. I didn't even know the ending when I started. It sucked. I wish I still had it so I could show you how much I've improved; it's hilarious! I started a novel when I was barely 18 that turned into a series of four novels. Still didn't know the ending, exactly, when I started, but my grasp of detail and plot had strengthened, and I had a cast of dozens of supporting characters. It took me eight years to finish that off, and it topped out at about 475K words. I'd still like to edit that someday; it's probably salvageable.
But my writing didn't really turn awesome until I came here to SW, with the sole purpose of learning how to write better stories. I relish the honest critique, and I edit my stories as soon as I get one so I can see if the critiquer was right. They always are.
I know I'm not at my peak of writing skill yet, but SW has given me a big boost and tons of confidence. In the end, I say "age, schmage". Quit jabbering in this useless topic, and prove how good a writer you are. Write something awesome.
But prove it to yourself. If you write to impress others, you're always going to be disappointed when someone doesn't like it. And there will always be someone who doesn't. It's called "they're not your target audience".
-
-
So if "Grape juice is just grape juice" that means wine is just wine no matter how expensive - just like grape juice? If so then what's the difference between kids and adults?
Also when you say we lack "experience and maturity" but a lot of kids are a hell of a lot more muture than you give us credit for. With experience - not all adults have more life experiences than kids. Take an adult who has never left England in their life and they want to write a book about culture and life of chinese people who live in shanghai, but they have never been there. I have been there, lived their in fact - but can this other person write about it better than me just because they are 50 and I'm only 12? -
The difference is in the way that each age group uses language,based on experience and maturity or lack their of. It doesn't mean you can't write,just that you can't be a child who can write like an adult;hence the different degrees of grape juice and wine and the way each tastes. So as Valkyrie says...that and the fact that most 13-18 year olds don't know how to argue a point effectively without resulting to insults/name calling and hissy-fits and still they don't watch their spelling and grammer--people please,if you're going to send me rude messages can you at least spell the words right so that I can understand what it is you're trying to tell me? I would really appreciate it kids.
-
So what's your point? I know the rules and can break them but thank you for your help--you are welcomed to be my personal little spell checker and grammer nazi. No hurt feelings here--I don't always spell right but,I am still correct in what I write and say 99.9% of the time. It takes alot more then a few misspelled words on my part and other people correcting me for me to get my feelings hurt. The point is that people do have a difference of opinion--and that's A-okay. I stand by my belief and all the little 13-18 year olds who have been sending their boo-hoo messages are still kids,not adults and I am laughing at you because you are proving me right--you lack experience and maturity...get back to me when you are grown.
-
-
Now, that's what I call an insult: an assumption of a subject's maturity.
This argument is a waste of time to all of us. It's been decided that it depends, and one person (or two, by my count) who believes that there is only one answer trying to dissuade all others of their own beliefs is only making it a frustration. I'm done here. You can carry on your crusade without me.
-
-
Dude,if I had a heart you'd be breaking it about now--but,since I don't...it won't. I reckon no one has ever disagreed with you,and you can't associate with someone who does...hmmmm. Such a thin-skinned lad. I wasn't trying to insult you or anyone else and yet,it just takes only a few words for people to get bent out of shape;it's a discussion and some people can argue effectively and some can't...oh,that darn maturity thing again! *covers mouth*
It's not a crusade who bothers with those anymore? Much like yesterday's newspaper this discussion will be history by tomorrow...look,see I am going to line my bird cage with it. Lighten up people. -
-
I tend to debate whenever a differing point of view is presented. I do this to find out the reasoning behind the difference and to see if I can find a way to go "Okay, I can see that." I would also like the other side to see my point as well.
Sure, I could send an insult back about how you are proof that age is not relative to maturity, but that would be wrong. The reason I'm not continuing on in this discussion is because I do not like staying in arguments that turn to insults. It's immature and I don't deal with it. If it were to return to diplomacy, I might make myself a part of it again, but I don't see that happening anytime soon. And since you haven't replied to my message reply, I see that you want to keep things public.
Now, this discussion is not related to the initial discussion, and it should not continue in here. My message box is always available.
-
-
You just did insult me and it is wrong. I replied to your message box and you came back with this? That's mature. This discussion is not going to continue here nor anywhere else--we'll 'talk' again when you apologize...my message box is open,get back to me when you are ready. *walks away*
-
"just that you can't be a child who can write like an adult;hence the different degrees of grape juice and wine and the way each tastes."
I noticed this.
Could you explain how a child writes, and how an adult does? This might solidify your argument. The whole thing about this 'can minors write as well as adults' topic that there's no comparisons. Who have we been comparing? Which minors who 'can't write as well/like audlts' have we been comparing to the adults that 'write better than minors' due to experience? And what exactly are we comparing? Plot, style, grammar?
I've also noticed you've hidden your age... which might somehow be related to your argument. : ) -
This reminds me of a quote that I got told on Friday, it was said by this chinese guy who made up loads of quotes and then Jesus said them again (Or that's what our teacher said anyway).
"Respect those younger than you for some day they may be greater than yourself" or something like that... It's a little harsh to say we won't catch up with you, some day KodyBoye could be a world famous author with 20 odd books published, whilst you (Or anyone else for that matter) could still be sitting at home doing nothing, does that mean he still hasn't caught up? (Sorry Kody but you were the our person I could think of who has been published...yet
-
Whoever started this Topic is a troll... and they've been successful... at least in getting a rouse from a few people...
The truth has already been stated:
Quality decides what stories are better than others.
Improving is what we all should be doing- how long we continue to learn- determines how far we will go. -
Your tone is incredibly condescending.
You make close-minded assumptions merely based on the majority of what you have seen. Yes, there are many young writers out there who are absolute crap. But I have seen eleven-year-olds that will shock me with imagery in their short stories.
Experiences can be, well, experienced at even young ages. This girl I mentioned, the eleven-year-old, writes mainly about her autistic brother. I will sometimes take influence from my experience with having panic disorder.
I realize that my writing has grown and will continue to grow. Believe me, I crack up when I see some of the crap I used to write. But I'm sure I'll feel that way ten years later about what I'm writing now.
I consider myself a mature and intelligent young person, probably more intelligent than many adults and children alike. I've been told I am a talented writer, and I feel comfortably assured that I will only continue to grow better writing-wise as I do physically.
As Oscar Wilde said, "I am not young enough to know everything."
Youth retains a sort of perspective you cannot attain as an adult. That is why a child's writing is unique. -
-
Black Row hit an excellent point on the child who uses her austistic brother as an inspiration. Can you write about that as well if you don't have a sibling that that? I don't think so.
-
-
I'd like to add something. I believe that it is among the greatest achievements for an author to be able to write about an experience he's never had. In that light, I'd say you can write about an autistic brother without having one, but the author with the autistic brother has the advantage of not having to delve into his imagination so much. Though the chance of the writer who's using his imagination will be as (or at least more) realistic as the other's piece is pretty slim.
As a sidenote, it seems we're confusing "life experience" with "writing experience" a lot here Not that you are, just that it seems to jump around a bit.
-
-
Oh, I do completely agree with you. I have the utmost respect for writers who have done enough research on something they haven't experienced (Max Brooks, anyone?).
I'm sorry, she was saying writing experience? Well, now I'm even more annoyed. A teenager can have twice the writing experience an adult does. -
-
In theory, the topic should be about writing experience, considering that that is what really makes a writer: writing. Life experience only matters depending on what you're writing. I think the older crowd is banking on the fact that nine times out of ten, an older writer is going to have more life experience than a kid.
-
-
-
-
-
I disagree. Stephenie Meyer is an adult, and she's a shit writer. I think it depends on what you're desiring to read. Teens write for teens, adults for adults. If it tries to go any other way (as Meyer demonstrates) the books turn out to be bloody awful. I, personally, can write better than a lot of kids my age. Meyer, however, would get a C in my English class for the Twilight books. (Personally, I'd give her an F- and make her go back to third grade to learn the basics of a good story, but...I digress.) I don't think age has anything to do with it - experience. I've experienced more in my life than a lot have people have who are much, much older than me. Experience matters. Age - not so much. Some say they go hand in hand. Honestly? That's a false claim. This is a stupid argument. Go waste your time arguing about something worth arguing about.
-
-
I actually don't write for any particular audience, though my fiction tends to learn toward something adults would read. I don't like toning myself down, lol.
But YES. I hate to bash Meyer, but... well... has anyone noticed she switches from past to present tense EVERY OTHER PARAGRAGH? I tried to read the first three pages, but couldn't get past that. Plus, I won't support the Mormon church by buying anything that has her name attached to it, so... lol. -
And yet her books sell, while we're all sitting here.
(I have yet to read her books... I read one chapter of one, and.. well... lost five minutes of my life that I'll never get back. 
) But, people like her, and people read her, and in this day and age where half the teens I know would rather stare at a wall than read a book, it's a good thing to get them interested in reading. My kid's cousin... she hates reading, writing, and anything to do with using her mind. She finally picked up the Twilight books, read them all, then moved on to other books of similiar genre. Then, I tossed her Bram Stroker's Dracula, and she read it in one weekend. 
A lot of kid's are reading again.... mainly all because of a badly written vampire story that's raking in millions both in print and on the big screen. And for that, I applaud the author (just for that, mind ya...) Same with the author of the Harry Potter series.
-
-
LOL Barbara. Did you go o.O like I did? I'm sorry, but yo do not say 'is' then 'was' in two different paragraphs (though was seems to be Meyer's favorite word.)
But, like you said, people are reading because of her, which is a good thing. My only concern is that what kids are reading it putting them in a mindset to where things should be 'perfect' (or, perfect, as perceived by Meyer's written word.) Edward is, technically, a pedophile, he's a stalker, the book contains racism and shows women that it's ok to give yourself into a man if he beats you, as long as he's good-looking and says 'he loves you.'
That's my only real quip about the Twilight books. That, and the fact that she donates ten percent to 'God' (AKA the Mormon church.) There's no problem with that, but why not donate some of those millions to people who actually need it?
lol
-
-
-
LMAO
This place has turned into a high school. The seniors swear they're the top dogs, the 'jedi masters' looking down on the small insignificant freshman. Completely oblivious to the fact that A) they were in that same position once and B ) There is a world outside of this little bubble.
Real published authors with real novels (you know, the ones you find in book stores) that they wrote by themselves, that actually sell...would laugh their asses off.
There are those seniors who realize where they are and where they've been and I applaud them for it. There are also those freshman who think just because they can out write their two friends, they should take over the literary world and anyone who is more popular is a horrible author.
I tried but I couldn't find an emote for you, so I chose one for an author that's just as good.
Ok, I'm lying, she's better.
-
-
Er... money-wise, Meyer is (and will most likely always be) better than all of us, LOL. My main thing about this argument is that it's going back and forth, people claiming you can't be good because of your age/whatnot. I like StoryWrite because of the fact that there are so many different levels of talent here. Some can't write, some are improving, some can write, others are published, etc.
About the 'more popular is horrible,' I used Meyer as an examble because her writing is severely flawed, so I'm not saying that there's anything wrong with being more popular and having more money (if you were referring to me, anyhow.) Meyer isn't an author I look up to just because she's rich and famous and has money in her pocket. Authors I look up to are Poppy Z. Brite, who fights to keep her church alive; Jennifer Haigh, who writes some of the most amazing families and characters; and Christopher Rice, who isn't afraid to write about things that others might not be comfortable with. It's one thing to be popular from something; it's another to be succesful because you deserve to be. Not saying that Meyer doesn't deserve it (because any author who makes it bigtime has a special 'You made it! Yes' place in my heart,) but I'm just saying... maybe her time wasn't now.
-
-
I was making a general statement to the group, not really referring to anyone in particular. I was curious to see who would try to defend their statement.
Besides money, what other reason would a person want to be published? If the money isn't important and you just have to 'share your story', why not self-publish or hell just paste it all on a writing site.
-
I don't agree. I don't believe 'age' determines how good or bad you write. I think older people would like to believe that their time spent on this earth is that much more important/valuable. I believe that it's not how long you've been around, but how long you've spent improving your craft.
Writing is a skill. I think of it like I do instruments and painting (among other talents). Anyone who puts time and effort into something they love in no time can produce something fantastic. I have witnessed many small children produce writings so outstanding I couldn't believe they had written it. Just as I'm sure many people have listened to music only to drop their jaws in shock to learn that the person playing is 6 years old. Come to think of it so many of the greatest musicians and painters out there have been painting since their childhood and even their childhood paintings/music are outstanding.
They aren't the exception, they aren't rare little gems.
Their parents often treated them like minature adults, encouraging their talents. And I am sure if more adults did this with children there would be more of these gems showing their true colours.
There is one child I met who couldn't draw for beans, but he kept at it and kept at it by the time he was 8 or 10 he was drawing real live paintings(paintings that looked real). He was on TV. And so maybe writing isn't a painting or an instrument. But its still another skill. And no matter how old you are, when a person has a love and a desire for something, and a willingness to excercize that skill they will excel.
There are a lot of children who are given this attitude by adults, that they could never write good at their age. It's a self-fulfilling prophecy. When you tell someone they are no good often they believe it.
But when you believe in their skill, and you help them to craft and to grow, and you throw away that biased 'Well I'm older than you and until you grow up you'll never be as good' attitude these children often excel in that area at a young age.
I have witnessed it in myself as well as other people who when given the right encouragement have written works that are so profound that when you ask them their age many adults sit back and go 'I don't believe it.' -
AAAHHHHH
someone make this thread die!!1 -
This topic has been locked by a moderator
New comments cannot be added. Moderators may lock topics when they get too out of hand or too long.Please feel free to start a new topic if you wish to continue discussion in a friendly manner.
Forums /
About Writing /
Why 13-18 Year Olds Can't Write Like Adults •
|
|
ForumsSign up for FREEA free account is required to comment and participate. It's fast, free, and easy! 
Already a member?Our MissionTo help you improve your writing skills, by providing a fun environment to share your stories. Join a small group or get to know your fellow writers! → Learn moreOnline: 289Greeters - ask question Gold members
↓
andigonz
beckyboo5291 Cajun.Lullaby Corn Flake Elisabeth Gabriella09 gezza Interesting kenzaburo mandabear303 Queen Mab QueenDethklok rachelxdanielle Random317 Rein Nightwind Schuyler VanAlen seamusl Skip454 Someday Hero. Taylor Fore xxCarrieAnnxx 159 visitors → Show all onlinePlease Support Storywrite |
|
Notify an Admin •
Chat •
Random •
Categories •
Lists •
Terms of Use •
Contact Us
Our sites: Poetry, Critical Poetry, Old Poetry, Quotes, Philosophy, Journals. © Social Design | |
First-Mate
Jun 3 6:15 AM
Reply