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Is publishing harder than it seems????


  • pink polka
    Aug 4 6:29 PM
    Reply
    Because I've seen millions of fantastic writers on here. If there are so many great writers, why aren't there more published writers?

  • Dun
    August 4

    Reply

    No.

    It seems about as hard as it is. It may or may not be, but it seems that it may seem that hard at least; as it is, that is.

    • wolfcub
      August 5

      Reply
      What?
      I can't get my head around that!

      • Dun
        August 5

        Reply

        sure you can...

        it's not as hard as it seems.

    • pink polka
      August 5

      Reply
      that makes No sense.

      • Dun
        August 5

        Reply

        I sense...

        that I must cease this nonsense since you may become incensed. May I advise you to take this in the sense that I make perfect sense so long as you remember that I have here aimed to make no sense. Then, my no sense does make sense in this sense and I have since ceased my nonsense and do henceforth promise to make sense. Yes, good sense demands I make sense and cease from nonsense since you may become incensed at my lack of making sense.

        That is what it seems, I sense...

        p.s. Yes, it is hard to get published, I have heard. But I have never tried. One day when I am crowned Super-Duper Writer Extraordinaire, maybe then I shall try. But until that day, I'm having a lot of fun with words.

        • JimZombie
          September 15

          Reply
          Were you perhaps drinking or on opium when you wrote this Al? Teasing the poor kid, so entirely unlike you...

          • Dun
            September 15

            Reply

            It was just good natured playin', Jim...

            but if it came across as teasing in a mean way I offer my sincerest apologies as it was by no means my intent. I don't drink nor do I smoke opium nor do I engage(at least not knowingly) in the (mean)teasing of kids. If it came across that way I am profoundly sorry and would be more than happy to remove my comments.

            • JimZombie
              September 15

              Reply
              Did my humour gland run dry again? I was having a good natured jest at your good natured playin', Al. I know you are a substance averting, clean-living type o' guy.

              *Goes off to find humour juice*

              • Dun
                September 15

                Reply

                D'ohhhh...

                Homer Simpson moment.

                Jimmy, I'm so sensitive because I have often wondered just what you observed and HAD worried that I had come across as teasing in a bad way. It certainly wasn't my intent. Sometimes a concept enters my head and I run with it like a developmentally disabled kid after a shiny quarter, only to think in retrospect whether or not I was off-base. It was a valid point, Jimmy, and helped me to consider my behavior in a subtle, passive-aggressive way. So I thank you for that. I'll have a shot of humor juice, tarbender...

                • JimZombie
                  September 15

                  Reply

                  *Hands over juice*

                  I'm glad we are back on the same page again. You know that stuff gives you cancer, the juice that is.

        • tony333
          November 21

          Reply

          Lol

          I don't care what others think. This is brilliant
          Maybe... one day I could use words like that

          • Dun
            November 21

            Reply

            Really?

            Thanks, I appreciate it. My thoughts revolve around words daily and whenever I have an idea enter my brain I pursue it, often to the chagrin of others.

            But it's nice to see one not so chagrined as may seem warranted by my word-wrangling silliness.

            Thanks.

            • tony333
              November 21

              Reply

              your welcome

              I wouldn't call it word-wrangling silliness. I find it intelligent and witty. It's a talent.

              Good luck now and always

  • pink polka
    August 5

    Reply
    if it's just a matter of patience, why isn't everybody published????

    • Barbara
      August 8

      Reply
      A lot of people are published... some self-publish, while others actually get an agent, etc. It's just that.... .... there's no real money to be made in publishing, really, unless you're a known name, or have some completely wicked story that will blow the socks off of everyone. Sure, you can get $10,000 for a book, but if you publish one a year, it's not that good of a living.

      Which is why most authors have real jobs.

      "Writing is not the lottery. New writers have to be realistic about what it takes to get published. But there is one similarity to the lottery: You have to play to win."
      -- Lori Perkins, literary agent

      • pink polka
        August 8

        Reply
        I just want my story out there one day. I don't really want the money. (it would be nice) But since all I can do for my doctor career right now is make good grades, I might as well work on writing in the meantime.

        My question remains, is publishing REALLY that hard? It seems like a multistep process, sure, but does your book have to be REALLY great to get published?

        I've seen some all time sucky books out there from first time authors, many that are worse than here on this site.

        How come the people here aren't all published writers?
        Surely many have tried!(and I'm sure their writers beats mine)

    • Dun
      September 15

      Reply

      Hey pink polka...

      Jim says I was being mean to you, but I didn't mean it that way. I realize however that I don't always realize the way I'm coming across. Did I offend you? If so, I am very sorry and would be happy to remove my remarks should that be the case. To be truthful, I didn't realize you were that young when I wrote it, but I think the age at which a person comprehends sarcasm(not mean sarcasm) is about the age of ten. I just looked and you're older than that. So I have to ask: were you offended by my comments? Again, if so I am really sorry and would be happy to remove them.

      • pink polka
        September 28

        Reply
        Oh, now I get it. You were mocking me.I didn't understand a word you said back there. Nah, you didn't offend me. I have gotten used to being teased thanks to my uncle.

        • Dun
          September 28

          Reply

          I wasn't mocking you.

          Just playing with words, no mocking expressed or implied.

  • Brightest
    August 7

    Reply
    *Laughs* Nice word game there Plumeister! I love those!!

    • Dun
      August 7

      Reply

      Hey, I try...

      Ms. Polka, everyone is not published because the ranks of the reading public dwindle daily as brains atrophy to the heinous plague that is mindless entertainment, ie: television and the movies. As such, publishers must keep that delicate balance of supply and demand wherein they print no more books than may be consumed at a profitable rate by these dwindling book-reading, not-wanting-to-become-intellectual-zombies masses.

  • Brightest
    August 7

    Reply

    *Laughs*

    I look forward to the day when I'll have that problem then! I've just got work on increasing my vocab first!

    • Dun
      August 7

      Reply

      Heh...

      I read the dictionary often as a child, for some strange disturbed reason, I don't know.

      Ms. Polka: I'd really like to be published but I am afraid the world is not yet ready for me. Or maybe I stink...my ego is leaning toward option one.

  • pink polka
    August 7

    Reply
    okaaay. HAS ANYBODY HERE ACTUALLY BEEN PUBLISHED?!?!

    • Dun
      August 7

      Reply

      nopers...

      not that I know of. We are but a sad collection of wannabes.

    • Barbara
      August 8

      Reply
      ME! ME!! Wait... does self-publishing count? (made a whole $1.50 profit in three years from it )...

      Magazine publishing, too... well, eZine, but they're national, and they came to me about a poem. A while back, I used to be a regular 'published' author at another online eZine.

  • Brightest
    August 7

    Reply

    Proud Wannabes!!

    I haven't been published, but I will be one day, I know that much. I'm not boasting my talents as a writer, I've got a lot to learn still, that I know. But I can be pretty stubborn and plan to be!

    Anyways, I've tried reading a dictionary, but I only got to about 'B' before it was boring. (Hm...what a coincidence) I'd rather read a good book that's a couple of levels above my head and learn that way.

  • Rhubarb
    August 11

    Reply
    I have many novels that I'm working on, and one day I will publish one.

  • yoshi97
    August 11

    Reply
    I published a short story last year and I have another one that was just accepted. As for novels, I'm working on getting mine published and the last agent I queried said my story is on the mark to be bought (publishable) but the market I wrote it for is flooded right now (sci-fi) which is why an unknown like me is finding it difficult to sell it.

    The secret, as I have found, for selling a novel ... Get known as a short story writer first. Market your short stories ... gather a following ... then query with your credentials. If you do that, you will sell your novel.


    Oh, something else ya need to be told ... and I do hate to bring this news forward, but as sad as it is, it is what it is ... Publishers aren't interested in great stories ... they're interested in stories they know they can sell. As such, they pass on a lot of great stories, uncertain of their ability to sell.

    What does this mean? If you have a following, you can get anything published. However, pump out a bunch of trash and the readers will reject ya, putting you back among the ranks of the unsellable.

    Reputation is big in this market, though it isn't so fickle as to not allow a few necomers to emerge out of the blue. It's just so rare that it happens that it is best to plan for the most probable path.

    • Dun
      August 12

      Reply

      Hey, congrats Yoshi,

      that's terrific. Thanks for sharing your success. A question for you: Do you feel that this place was a meaningful contributor to your getting published, or do you think you could have done without it?

  • yoshi97
    August 12

    Reply
    I could have done it on my own, but all the support I have received from members here has helped immensely.

    I think of StoryWrite as more of an author support group than I do a focused critique circle. It's also a great place to learn, as many authors are willing to share what they know ... and that information is invaluable.

    For anyone who wants to be published, I say this ... earnestly read what's out there. Don't copy it, learn from it. Decide what it is you like about certain stories, as those will be your strengths. Then, write a story and post it here for review to see if you 'have something' or perhaps you need to work through your idea a bit more.

    The thing NOT to do is ever feel injured when someone dislikes your story or how it is written. My philosophy is ... Embrace your critiques, as they will tell you how best to improve. That's not to say that all criticism is right, but your heart will tell you when it is, and when you need to listen.

    As for the remark stating there are few publishable authors here, I would like to diffuse that and state it more accurately by saying there are few publishable stories here. It's not the authors that are ever judged - it's their work, and if you're posting a story here you are already admitting it most certinly needs more work. That's not a bad thing ... it's a good thing. It's far better to work on it here and perfect it, than it is to submit it unpolished and appear a fool.

    This is a construction zone, where stories are put together, and construciton zones are often dirty, grimy, and quite unsightly. However, it all changes when the workers are done and beautiful buildings stood where chaos once ruled. If we are all honest with ourselves and see this place for what it is - our construction zone - we will build our elegant skysfrapers much more quickly, as we will understand our purpose for being here.

    As for why I believe many stories here to be in mid-construction, I will explain. The biggest problem I see is writers are still confused about the materials needed to construct a story. 90% of all stories that do not sell are refused because the author has failed to study the proper components of a story, and because of that, they are confused when they are told their story 'doesn't quite fit'.

    I didn't want to elongate this post further, but I can't rightfully throw out a remark like that without defining it better. Put down your pitchforks lads and lassies ... I'll explain.

    The following ingredients must be in EVERY story you want to sell ... short or long. Without them, it has little chance of success. You will find these ingredients in every great story, but you often can't identify them without looking deep between the words, as an author disguises them be flowing them effortlessly amid all the other words.


    A goal: Your main character MUST have a goal. He must have something he is shooting for at the beginning of the story, or he is nothing more than a nomad, lost in a desert of words. Don't ever allow your main character to just react to everything around him without having a purpose or desire - make it known to the reader what it is.

    Motivated characters: Every character, from the guy that steps on stage to ask directions, to the main character striving to succeed, must have motivations for what they do. The more important the character, the greater the need for the reader to understand their motivaiton.

    Stimulus-response: A good example is a deer being hit by a speeding automobile. That's the stimulus - what's the response? The deer is hurt - we know that one. What about the people in the car? Do they notice? Do they care? (internal response) are they injured (external response). Every stimulus must be followed by a response. When something happens, I want to know how people feel about it and what happens because of it. Too many authors forget this, and you wind up with scenes like the deer and the car, with the car just speeding past as if nothing ever happened.

    Logical progression: All things happen in a linear progression. A happens, then B happens, then C happens. John opens the door, the cat jumps out, John chases the cat. That's linear. However, what if John hates the cat? Well, then John won't chase it - he's glad the cat ran away. So, don't tell me John chases a cat he hates without giving me a darned good reason - such as - it's his girlfriend's cat and she would leave him if she discovered he let the cat ran off. Now remember, John is going to have a good talk to that cat when he finally catches it.

    Character growth: Your main character must have a major flaw to be sympathetic to the reader, and at the end of the story, you must give your main character a chance to resolve that major flaw. Please note, I did not say it had to be resolved ... I only stated he had to try. If he succeeds in his goal, the ending is seen as a victory, if not, it's seen as a tragedy - both work.

    So, if John wants to date Mary, his major flaw might be that he is too shy to ask her out. Throughout the story he works on his shyness, and in the end he DOES ask her out. Mary then accepts - victory, or laughs in his face - tragedy. Still, John has done something to resolve his flaw.

    Premise: All commercial stories need a hidden message. You need to communicate something to the reader, below the level of the words. If you write about a hero on a quest, then perhaps your message could be to never give up. If you write about a vampire hunter that must rid his town of vampires, but has a difficult time with the last one, as it's his wife, then perhaps the message is duty must win over love. You need to say something ... and you must do it without actually saying it. The words on the page must somehow convey your message.

    Believability: As a writer, if you are writing fiction, therefore you must always bend the reader's belief. If you were writing the truth, you would be writing non-fiction, and that's a horse of another color. Believability is the thread that holds fiction together. How far can you pull the string before it breaks? How long can you hold the reader in your world, accepting all that you say as plausible and possibly true? It better be until the end if you intend to sell that story, as one nagging doubt will toss the story aside.

    Always ask yourself as you write ... within the rules of my world, is what I write plausible? If the wizard can fly through the air on the first page, then he better be able to fly on page 30 when that crazed witch throws a firegball at him.

    And sometimes it's what character's DON'T do that stunts believability. John sees Mark hurt in a car accident and it scares him a lot. He then gets into a car the next day and neglects to wear his seat belt. Plausible in real life? Yes. Plausible in fiction? Well, you better have a good reason for not telling us John is being more careful after what he saw happen.

    Fiction is only fiction when its believable. It's kind of a contradiction to make something up and then try to make others believe, but many of us did it as kids, sitting by the fire and telling ghost stories. The more believeable the story, the more the other kids huddled in their blankets ... however, if your story hit an improbable point the other kids pointed at you and laughed, defeating the purpose of your scary story. Make them believe ... it's what all great authors do.


    There is so much more to know, such as good grammar, good word choice, excellent spelling, etc. However, any serious writer will pony up on these while possibly neglecting the important issues I mentioned above.


    So ... how does a small question such as yours wind down into this long verbal babble session from myself? Why did I stray so far from the point?

    Actually, I didn't stray at all ... as these are all lessons I learned here, and there are many more I failed to mention.

    StoryWrite definitely helps authors who are willing to learn ... they need only be willing to put forth the effort to improve on their craft to see their dream come true.

    Now, aren't ya sorry ya asked.

    • BreakingDawn
      August 12

      Reply
      That's a lot of great advice.

    • pink polka
      August 13

      Reply
      Isn't a goal and motive the same???

      • yoshi97
        August 13

        Reply
        Similar .. but not at all the same.

        Motivation is what drives the character toward his goal.

        A cop might choose to stop a serial killer (a goal) because the serial killer murdered his wife and he wants revenge (motivation).

        Motivation typically drives the main character forward to fulfill his goal, which is why both concepts appear similar. They should, as they both lead to the same destination.

        However, motivation can also drive a character AWAY from his goal, making for a more complex story.

        Let's change the above example a little bit.

        The cop discovers he knew very little about his wife. She was involved with the person that killed her and was doing some really bad things. To make matters worse, she used his status as a cop to perpetrate her crimes without ever being suspected, and he covered for her many times without knowing it.

        Internal conflict rises, as he realizes he is angry that she died and angry he knew so little about her. He still has the goal of bringing the villain to justice, but his motivation changes to one of serving justice.

    • ArcticFox
      August 31

      Reply
      woah. great advice. thanks!!

    • angellove
      October 29

      Reply
      Thanks for the advice, and THANK YOU for pointing out almost all that I've learned from Writer's Digest School. The things you shared about character motivation brought the lessons back to my mind. Thanks.

      There is only one non-fiction symbollic writing I know that does NOT follow the linear format, and that is the book of Revelation from the Bible. I learned about the writing of this from a Greek scholar. It blew my mind learning about the six different endings all happening at the same time.

      It is so true about characters having flaws readers can understand. I've read that the characters you use in a story must be larger than life, but they also must be beliveable, with a past readers can identify with.

      Thanks for sharing this advice, and, yes, I love the two writing sites I am a part of. The readers and writers on those sites have helped me tremendously to see where I went right and where I went wrong. I am a grammar and spelling freak, so I love it when readers can point those nitty-gritty things out to me. I also appreciate tips on plot and character, which are the backbone of my novel.

      Write On!
      Beth

  • Dun
    August 12

    Reply

    Absolutely not.

    You have composed a very direct reply and answered in every appreciable whit my query. Your response is written well and it is obvious to me that you take pride in ALL of your writing, be it a response to a comment or what-have-you. I like to read good writing on whatever the subject. Your response was long but my reading of it was not. That is the mark of a true writer, ease of reading and efficiency in the transfer of thought from the writer to the reader. Very good, Yoshi. I am impressed and felt your response well worthy of anyone's time. It's a pleasure to make your acquaintance and I appreciate you taking the time to compose such a thorough and well-considered response. I think I know who next I'll be checking out on this 'construction' site. Oh, and by the way, excellent use of tailoring the message to your audience with your construction metaphor. Nice job. I'm not sorry in the slightest, but glad I asked.

  • yoshi97
    August 12

    Reply
    Thanks!

    I spent a lot of time muddling through and learning everything the hard way and promised myself if I ever started to learn I would share what I knew with others as I know what it was like for me to keep asking endless questions and wait forever for meaningful replies.

    I still have questions, and continue to learn, and I'm certain there is no way to learn it all, but I suppose that's part of the fun.

    • pink polka
      August 13

      Reply
      Wow. I can't write short stories really well because it's hard for me to establish a good plot in less than 100 pages...

  • yoshi97
    August 13

    Reply
    Short stories are difficult for me as well. To write them, I need to let go of the intricate plots and focus more on a small sequence of occurrances leading from point A to point B.

    Oddly enough, most of the short story writers I know suffer from the opposite ... they can't write enough pages to keep a plot expanding.

    Consider yourself fortunate to have a mind that keeps inventing more material.

  • Valkyrie
    September 1

    Reply
    That was a very thorough reply, yoshi, and it has made me rethink my decision to refrain from posting my favorite novel idea I have on Storywrite. Why? Because more than likely, you're right, it won't get published, but I still want to write it. And I want it to be the best story it can be; for that, I'll need help and feedback. So. As soon as I finish the novel I'm working on (), I'll get over to the one I've been hoarding in my mind.
    Thanks for the great summation again. It's always good to check myself against a master list like yours, just in case I got too carried away with my super duper new idea, and left out something essential.

  • katicalocke
    September 10

    Reply
    Hi everybody. I'm new to the forums and just wanted to thank yoshi for the great advice. My first novel will be coming out next spring, and the sequel was just recently accepted, to be published in spring of 2010, but reading that post earlier probably could have saved me a few rejection letters. Great job!

  • spikeyness
    October 11

    Reply

    errrr....

    ...Yeah. I think it is that difficult. Or not, if you already happen to be a celebrity with more money and talent than you could shake a stick at, in which case all you have to do is marry another rich celeb and then get a ghost writer to tell everyone about it. Or better still, get yourself arrested for sniffing bicycle seats and get your ghostwriter to tell everyone all about your therapy.
    Bitter? Me?
    Why, yeeees....

  • LR Saul
    October 29

    Reply
    Hi pink polka.

    I was just breezing past this forum and saw your question. There seems to be a lot of confusion in the question, and I don’t blame you. Publishing is a bewildering game, and when you truly want to be published, as the years go by it becomes a burden of unfulfilled dreams.

    I have worked as a writer, novelist and book editor for over twelve years. So I hope my answer will be of use to you.

    The answer is, unfortunately, that getting published is extremely hard. The odds of getting published are ‘one in a million’. Publishers and agents initially reject around 99.5% of what they receive. One agent, for example, invites around 50 authors of the 500 proposals they receive every month, to send in full manuscripts – a generous number. Of those fifty, maybe two at the most will be taken on. And, to make it worse, of 1500+ agents in the US, at any given time, only 25% will be taking on new clients. And that’s just agents. Those agents are filtering to sell to publishers, and the publishers are only going to take on a small selection of what agents offer.

    We live in an age where everybody thinks they are a writer. We all know how to string words together, and sentences, and paragraphs, and chapters. And because we all think we have a novel in us, more and more people are sending manuscripts into publishers. Publishers receive an average of about 5,000 manuscripts a year. Could you imagine if every publisher published every manuscript they received? Tens of thousands of new books would be cramming our bookstores every week. (And that's not even the short story market.)

    What happens when a publisher receives far more manuscripts than they need? Firstly, they shut down their ‘slush pile’ and go through agents. That means that agents do the annoying job of searching for them. Secondly, they can afford to be fussy. So yes. Your book has to be exceptional all the way down to punctuation and grammar. As a book editor and tutor, I can usually flick to any page of a book and tell you straight away why it would be rejected. So every single page needs to be exceptional. It’s the reality of the game.

    My advice to you is to write because you absolutely love writing and couldn’t stop if you tried. Do not write because you want to be published. Writing must be its own reward, not the publishing. Only this will keep you going through the rejections and long years of waiting; and only this will make you determined enough to study and practise to be the best of the best.

    I hope this has answered your question. Keep writing.

    LR Saul.

    • Barbara
      October 29

      Reply
      "Do not write because you want to be published. Writing must be its own reward, not the publishing." That is about the best piece of advice I've seen on here.

      It's true, there are a lot of people who wish to be published. I see 15 year olds that state they've been 'writing for years', and want to publish. (And I've seen some 15 year olds that are absolutely amazing writers). Although... a lot think that it takes no time at all to get published.

      I was reading about the 'Twilight' author, and apparently it took her a whole 6 months from creation to publication. A very rare thing to happen, I would think.

      Another author took almost eight years from the completion of the first book to find a publisher willing to take a chance on the series. The most cited rejection was that the series concept was too different to be marketable. She is now a #1 New York Times bestselling author, with more than twelve million copies of her books in print in twenty-eight countries. (I linked to her site since I took the stats from there)
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